NZ Centre for Political Research

This week's poll asks:

Should the government have backed down on its attempt to reprioritise education spending to improving the quality of teaching?

*A back down of this nature shows weakness and exposes the inherent weakness of the M.M.P. electoral system. It is obvious that the National Party un-estimated the strength of the Unions lined up against this move.
It also failed to appreciate that the education canvassing done for smaller classes had galvanised, and indoctrinated the public to such a degree, that this sacred cow had reach almost sainthood in many people’s eyes.
Had there been some military minds in the National Party they might have foreseen the consequences of attacking without proper intelligence! But as we all know from long experience, our Politicians have no need of such outdated classic military knowledge in such a benign environment as “God’s Own”!
Before reducing class sizes or increasing the same; some form of proper discipline and control by teachers over pupils might be advantageous of reducing our overall future crime statistics. There seems little point in the present practice of treating children in classrooms as adults, until they are taught to control themselves; firstly at home as well as at school.
A smart move would be to remove the present “Smacking Law” despite the United Nation Agenda 21 decree. But then that would need a Statesman at the helm of our country, and the removal of the U.N. toadies from Parliament. Brian

*Many of the children leaving the school system have an abysmal ability in basic English spelling, comprehension and writing skills. Many have poor general arithmetic skills and a complete lack of financial skills (apart from students taking this as part of their curriculum). The old methods worked the best where children had to study and learn to achieve and gain recognition. Today, too much is placed on self esteem and gratification and reward for little or no effort. Gary

*We need better teachers who can impliment meaningful lessons. Joan

*No, but I would not have said so before reading your article because we had remarkably little information on the background before then. The so-called news media were not really informative and even the government's spin doctors were too hushed before the kerfuffle. Rob

*Unfortunately if parents supported the unions, there is little hope for NZ, because that means a vast majority of people in NZ are ignorant of the facts, or do not think. John

*They showed how gutless they are putting their popularity above their principles. The unions are a powerful vested interest group that works in the best interest of the union NOT students and parents. National should have stuck to its reform programme. Sandra

*They should have stuck to their guns - the education unions are dangerous. Ben

*But it needed to present the policy in an entirely different way. Ronmac

*No one will agree to cuts that affect their patch. Surely the protests were to be expected. They should have defended their priority changes with evidence and then stuck to their guns. They could have raised all the points raised in the newsletter to justify the changes and stuck to their guns. Claire

*It is a pity that Brash flipped his lid.. what we need as a country is a PM and cabinet with a bit of backbone to stand up to pressure groups iwi very much included and not trying to cover their asses all the time. Graham

*From what we were told through the media, the govt's policy seemed ludicrous (I suffered through high school in too large class student no.s and frequently changing teachers). Why wasn't the kind of info as in your article, Muriel, broadcast to show what the govt actually intended? Is this just another case of media bias and untruthful reporting? Jane

*It seems that the Govt should have continued with their education strategy. I have watched the standards progressively move downhill over the years. The "no-one is a failure" attitude was being introduced when my kids were at school, and I found out about it when at a "meet the teachers" evening where it was explained to me that one of my sons had achieved a "D pass". A very heated argument followed between the idiot teacher and me. From then on no-one failed, and the flow on effect was that the whole education system has been progressively dumbed down to the stage we are at now .... producing a majority of illiterate morons. What is really disturbing is that most of the experts believe our education system is doing great!!!! Neil

*The Maori culture based on myth and legend is the complete antithesis to science learning so while the spineless John Key appeases the Maori party yet again, the attempts to reform education spending is wasted on maori language schools.
Tim Groser's comment that learning te reo is good for learning other languages is bunkum. Most people can only cope with one and in a modern world that has to be English! We need a leader like Winconsin's Scott Walker who will deal to the trade unions. Monica

*Not sure why they caved so easily. There's got to be more to it than we have been allowed to know. The press coverage of the whole thing had extreme left-wing bias. Sharen

*The teacher unions need to be kneecapped. They wield far too much power, and have molested the minds of young students for their cause. Parents have far too little say in the education of children. Alistair

*They might be braindead or they might be a threat as big as the Taliban. Christopher

*But it did! By losing the initiative to vested interests in a humiliating way, the only way to wrest back that initiative is to be heavy handed in the next face off with the unions and special interest groups, with all that that approach brings. Never let the mob smell fear lest they become emboldened and overwhelm one. Peter

*I think Our PM should have stood his ground, A pretty hopeless country we have at this time. Marilyn

This week's poll asks:

Should the government have backed down on its attempt to reprioritise education spending to improving the quality of teaching?

*Key has no courage - think class sizes, superannuation age, ETS, anti-smacking-if it could cost votes. But what about the votes of those of us who would admire a bit of courage? Mike

*The decrease in the amount of teachers was minimal to say the least with advantages overiding the negative of such a move. Of course I do not like to see people loose jobs, but the ratio of teacher/pupil was still going to be way less than when I was at school in the 1960's where I was always in a class of over 40 pupils to one teacher and I came out still able to write my own name and know my multiplication tables. How about that! Brian

*Why shouldn't teachers be judged (and therefore paid) on their performance like everyone elsy? Stewart

*They should not have backed down but the idea was poorly "sold" from the beginning. Yet another example of this government failing to explain the need for tough measures. Mo

*They continue to show their true colours. Graeme

*They should forget about charter schools. Primrose

*Governments should not back down against Unions. Geoff

*They need smaller not larger children to teacher. And as for cutting teachers. They should start cutting costs in the bleeding
Bee-Hive. Howard

*Apart from the first two years, low pupil teacher ratios don't make a difference to learning outcomes. Teacher skill and high expectations are the most significant factors in benefiting pupil learning. If they got rid of the foolish National Curriculum and returned to actually instructing and training children we would get somewhere. My mother was better educated in basic knowledge and skills after leaving school at age twelve, than many of today's university graduates. That was from 1906. Her teachers were trained in the classroom by being apprenticed to excellent teachers. I my self was in a class of over 45 pupils when I started school in 1948 - all of us learned to spell, write neatly, etc, etc.After two years training, my first teaching job was in an intermediate school in Otara in South Auckland. I had 35 pupils and that was the smallest class in the school. But the pupils in that school got an excellent education which focused on the basics. As the article points out, millions of dollars have been spent reducing class sizes but little or no evidence of improved learning outcomes. The government didn't make its case very clearly. They should have planned it better and then stuck to their guns. Education is about pupil learning not all the PC nonsense that teachers and kids alike are being indoctrinated with! Duncan

*Nats should of stuck to the guns. Madness to back off like big pussies. David

*Never mind the Unions versus Govt contest, I fail to see that increasing class sizes by such a small % will make any difference. However, teacher quality must be paramount. I don't think that primary school teachers should need a masters degree, but they do need ability to engage with pupils, and keep up with the times. Ron

*Teachers are guilty of brainwashing young minds with their lefty dogma. They promulgate the cult of globalwarming/climate change and generally denegrate anything that doesn't fit with there socialist principles. In addition, men have been virtually driven out of prmary teaching because of the fear that they will be accused of chid molestation, so that we now also have a feminist agenda foisted onto kids from day one. John

*In my day the normal was 30 to 40 pupils in each class. The teachers not only coped well, they were good teachers and had regular inspectors making sure they were up to the teaching standard required. The success or failure of the students was not a gauge of their teaching ability as they were judged on their personal ability as teachers able to deliver a high standard of education in the prescribed curriculum. You cannot judge a teacher's ability on the success or failure of students because the students themselves have to be willing to learn, and many are not.Therefore I conclude that class sizes are irrelevant to student success. Regular inspections of a teacher's ability to teach will determine the quality of education being delivered but it will not eliminate the failure of students who simply refuse to learn. Jayne

*When you have the press backing the teachers it is better to get this out of the way than to leave it there for their propaganda machine to take further snipes at the Government. George

This week's poll asks:

Should the government have backed down on its attempt to reprioritise education spending to improving the quality of teaching?

*Constant changes by the Govt in teacher demands has hugely increased a teacher's workload. Massive paperwork, planning, testing, analysing, data entering, report writing, interviews, meetings, extra curricula activities, marking, let alone preparation of resources and deliver the extensive programme requiresd to cover the broad curriculum. Teachers are overworked, overloaded and stressed to the max. They are working 60+ hours per week. Every extra child increases that workload.Teaching has become very prescriptive to meet National standards. No longer joy, spontaneity and creativity in the classroom - too much pressure and demands. How to turn kids off learning at a young age! More thought needs to be given to improve quality of teaching. Does anyone really know what this entails or had ideas of how to do it??? Not heard a thing. English advisers have been brought over here to guide our Govt in Educational matters, yes, we are following the failed English system. These people have not had the NZ learning experiences before they make these major changes. Our education system to improve needs lots of extra support for the paper war for teachers so they can then get on and do the delivery of the programme, not increase their load and expect improvements. I always laugh on labour day, as a teacher, that Labour day represents the 40 hour week. Work for the Govt as a teacher and work 60+ hours. rather a joke. Christinec

*Agree with your comments completely. Sandra

*A little corporal punishment would not go amiss (for the students and perhaps some teachers). Dick

*Last thing this counrty needs is a return to the 70's & 80's when union trouble was common place. Brent

*Destroyed the minister making her easy meat for the Unions in future. Opposition was simply mass hysteria generated by the leftwing media throwing their weight behind their left wing comrades. Baxter

*Stop beating up the unions. They can have important role in improving educational standards. Try see the poitive rather than automatically trashing their efforts. Simon

*The fact that they DID back down was a result of the total ineptitude they displayed when introducing the scheme. They ought to have realised that some schools were going to lose several teachers and that this would provide the militant teachers with ammunition to scare the parents into supporting them. They simply didn't do their homework and prepare the ground. Only a part of the blame falls on the relatively inexperienced (but very promising) minister. The longer Key reigns, the less impressed I am by his performance. This latest catastrophe would never have occurred under Commissar Clerk! Key has coasted through one term as PM and been re-elected, this enables him to tick off that box in his list of ambitions and he's now coasting through his second term, playing smiley-nice-guy on the international stage before moving on. The right needs a proper leader and he isn't it! Where is John Galt? Auntie Podes

*Lost credibility with voters will be seen as 'soft' touch for future activists. Steve

*It stuffed up by (a) not presenting the problem identified in the ERO reports, (b) providing the public/parents with specific examples of what was not happening in the classroon and (c), offering the solution to correct it. They just don't communicate with the stakeholders and allow them to buy in to their plans. Vic

'We tell Wisconsin, we tell our country...

voters really do want leaders who stand up and make tough decisions.'

- Scott Walker, Republican governor, who became the first U.S. governor to survive a recall vote that arose from his push to end collective bargaining for public workers
fr. 'Time', 18th June,'12

This week's poll asks:

Should the government have backed down on its attempt to reprioritise education spending to improving the quality of teaching?

*The government had no choice. What with the anti-government media & the unions conniving to deliberately mislead the NZ public, who generally suck in what they hear, what chance was there it could ever be implemented. The next misinformation crusade will be the part sale of assets. John

*The problem lies in the delivery and structure of the curriculum. Bill

*If the same was to be done in private and maori schools it would be fairer, larger classes does not benefit children, something else needs to be done to save the dollars. Carolyn

*While I think the idea that National was trying to push was stupid and useless and only so much more "rearranging deck chairs on the titanic", at the same time the actual "back-down", if that's what it was, was out of line. No government should ever "back down" in the face of any union, as all unions are nothing more than communist strongholds disguised as "the voice of the people". They're a voice of the people all right - just not the people they claim to "defend" and "represent". Peter

*"Education spending" and "quality of teaching" are not dependent so this is a nonsensical question.

Saving $174 million over 4 years when our wastrel government "spend" $191 million per day is also nonsense.

How do you improve teaching quality?

Simple:

* Lower the teacher:pupil ratio to well under 20 pupils per class.
* Eliminate teachers who do not have English as a first language;
* Provide systems and processes that support teachers sharing best practice;
* Eradicate the education GESTAPO (AKA ERO) in their current form.

What English and Key failed to tell everyone is that there is a demographic bulge coming into schools that started last year.

Over the last 5 years there has been a significant increase in birth rates.

This means we need EVEN MORE good teachers and EVEN MORE resources like classrooms.

If Bill&John really wanted an increase in skills, they would be SLASHING welfare, increasing benefits for pensioners and significantly increasing spending in education. Mark

*The Govt should be concentrating in the primary sector with the 3's in english and team sport with an introduction into, science, history and geography. We need to educate the population as we have far to many ning kong poops as it is. Bill

This week's poll asks:

Should the government have backed down on its attempt to reprioritise education spending to improving the quality of teaching?

*This was very poorly thought through, National are in a second term of office and should have had by now all of these cost reforms carefully worked out with a planned introductory procedure, good consultation with all participants and clear costs saving. It seemed as though this idea had been dreamt up on Friday, drafted on Sunday, agreed to on Monday and announced on Tuesday, no detail planning, no implementation plan and poor presentation, worse of all no back up and nowhere to manoeuvre. They must have known the teacher unions and parent groups would have fought this, but it is more emotive when real faces can be put to those identified teachers most likely to go, i.e. technical and home economic teachers, that is just nuts. Very poor management. Robert

*We are now governed by a govt more interested in the poll results than doing what it was elected to do. We need a major shakeup and now. Tim

*Loaded question. It is pretty doubtful that the net reduction in the education vote would have improved the quality of teaching anyway. David

*Weak populace coalition governments are bad for the country. I rue the day we adopted MMP! Peter

*Only because of the huge centre-left pressure placed on education minister. NZers are not ready to listen to the facts about quality education. Alex

*How dumb was that policy? Bigger classes would not equal better teaching. Come on, get real! Teachers already do a good job under bad conditions, the things they have to deal with these day is much more than when I was at school under the old school cert days. They are continuously assessing these days, marking and moderating - all the time. There are no 'special' classes today, all those problem kids are in the 'mainstream' classes - smaller classes are whats needed - thats what you will get at a private school. Where the teachers have time to give one to one feedback to a smaller class. Not as easy in a large class. I can't belive you are supporting a policy like that.. John

*Whoever was responsible for getting the policy change publicised should be fired immediately - they clearly failed to get the message across. The education "profession" has long believed it knows better than anyone else. It is high time it was cut down to size. Mind you, I'd start with the bloated, over-funded, under-performing universities. Gary

*NO! NO! NO! What a weak kneed action. We need a Government who will stand up to these B's. Unfortunately NZers are so imbued with socialism that they are not able to make rational decisions. They should ask themselves 1/ what destroyed the once World leading ship bulding industry? The answer as in the demise of so many other industries union dominance. The unions will also destroy our education system as will they the Ports of Auckland. Stupid bastards!! Jim

*I was told in 1950 that many heads of departments and teacher trainingcolleges had communist sympathies.... Eneka

*If the education system keeps doing the same things, there will be no improvement in quality. Where are the incentives for the teachers in short supply? For male teachers? For any improvements? Graham

*This government is turning out to be very weak. the moment some challenges it with a lot of noise they back down. Teachers today dont teach the basics and claim we have the best education system in the world. I would hate to see the worst system if the best system has about 20% of the pupils unable to do the basics of reading writing and arithmetic at all. Colin

*The REAL issue was the loss of technology in intermediates, and PARENTS didn't want that. MARY

*Politically, I don't think they had any choice, the lead up to the announcements had been badly handled. David

*How can a minister know what it is like to teach if she has never been face to face with a ragtag bunch of kids intent on dragging the teacher down? Ken

*The teachers, brainwashed parents and the wider public just don't get it. There are no sacred cows, and a modest increase in the size of classes is unlikely to do any harm. Perhaps they should contrast their situation with that of small businesses, many whom are precariously hanging on in these tough times. Many proprietors have mortgaged their homes to fund their businesses and they also often employ staff. No one is suggesting that education is unimportant; neither are they suggesting that there should be a reduction in investment in education. However, understand this: it is plainly wrong for the country to spend more than it than earns. That is the message, and we all have to make sacrifices in hard times. Teachers are not different from the rest of us in this regard. Peter
But regardless of that basic areas in Education are long overdue for radical reform. More specifically to the Min.of Ed,the ERO [and linked to these and NZQA].The Min of Ed needs weeding and culling: Far too many Lefties/liberals and failed teachers, principals now influencing the whole shebang including the curriculum in Primary and Secondary Education; the present Revisionist NZ History of NZ currently brainwashing our kids/young people; the brainwashing of kids to accept the importance and exalted status of the Maori, and all things Maori - including te Reo. The ERO needs total replacement by the tried and true Inspectorate that Lange's Tomorrow's School swept aside. The NZQA needs at least some change - a body that can accept NCEA as a bona-fide school qualification to attend university, polytechnics needs serious scrutiny. Frank

*IF THE GOVT. WANTS TO DAVE MONEY SUSPEND TREATY TRIBUNAL UNTIL THE WORLD FINANCIAL CRISIS IS OVER. KEITH

*They are idiots. Don

*I'ts a shame the brains are leaving the country and all that will be left are the moron left. Chris

This week's poll asks:

Should the government have backed down on its attempt to reprioritise education spending to improving the quality of teaching?

*If necessary de-register the NZEI and the PPTA. Union leaders do not care about their members or the people in general, only about their own job security. Kerry

*I have voted yes to this pole because the Government stuffed up big time. The evidence of the demise of 'representative' government is world wide. The information revolution has seen to that! The answer is 'consultative' government. The technology is in place and operated correctly consultation is easy and will prevent this current debacle. IOt is all too apparent the government did not adquately consult nor did they do anything like adequate sale of their concpt -- How sad, too bad! Come on John Key & Co. - get your act together (no pun intended). Ian

*They should never have promoted the "larger classes" theory. Some of us have spent 50 years reducing class sizes (to the benefit of all children, not just our own and our grandchildren). Has anyone faced the issue of the selection and quality of the intake of teacher training candidates and the question of whether it is high enough and slectiive enough...then teaching could be upgraded first? Then, maybe, having declared the competence levels required (as opposed to just numbers of teachers to fill the vacancies) Then, and only then, will there be an acceptable base-line. Good teachdrs (and we have met a fair few) are like diamonds..... We owe them so much, but just occasionally one comes along who would be happier in almost any other job.... Jean

*Education policy should not be made by Treasury oficials and accountants. This is the first lesson the Government needs to learn. Involving teacher unions in the development of professional development for teachers is essential. John

*I agree with your article, but still think the Govt was right to back-down. The political management was unbelievably inept - converting a strong positive (many parents want better teaching in our public schools)into a huge negative (uncaring Tories pushing up class sizes for the plebs). The real tragedy is that this will delay education reform for years. Robo

*Teaching standards are dropping in New Zealand, ask anyone who has had to interview school leavers for work recently, unions across the board detest pay for performance as it undermines their socialist “vision”, unfortunately it also stiffles excellence, the teacher unions, with the help of the kids (and parents who did not see through the smoke screen) did a good job of deflecting attention away from the good points of the proposed reforms. John

This week's poll asks:

Should the government have backed down on its attempt to reprioritise education spending to improving the quality of teaching?

*This backdown to the unions was totally unnecessary. National has shown itself to be weak and unprincipled. That is a very bad look. Jim

*The unions totally won the battle but only by unscrupulously scaring parents and students. The government should have ploughed ahead with their reforms and the public would have soon realised that the sky was not going to fall in! Sandra

*Unions 1, National 0 - pathetic really! Mike

*It is all about teaching quality - National is right. Why on earth did they back down? They should have approached this in the same way as the welfare reform - a working group, consultation and so on so that they took the public along with them. Bad management really. Peter

*National should not have backed down. Wendy