NZ Centre for Political Research

Peter G, don't get me wrong. Your status as a loather of the incumbent Government is safe and sound. For that you have my respect. My comment was a little tongue-in-cheek, but I think we talk too much nice talk. Time for some clear lines in the sand. The softly softly approach has not and will not work.

Also, what did you think about my view regarding insecurity? Is the reason Maori get so defensive the fact that they are on shaky ground? I think so. The traditional culture, and indeed the somewhat bastardised modern equivalent (a la Hone & co) is really not a functional alternative in the modern world. Why hang onto it? But hey, free world, so if they want to, good on 'em. One must wonder however why they would choose a dysfunctional system when their are better alternatives for their "mokupuna" and their "tamariki ". Duff is right, the future is bright if they get educated. Indians over here still adhere to some religious traditions I would call silly, but at the same time are generally well educated and intelligent. What is it that stops Maori from doing their poi twirling when they want and still going to university?? The idea that the world owes them a living, the idea that the white man's world is bad, the idea that asking real questions is wrong and the idea that the rest of us need this nonsense thrust upon us are just a few barriers that spring to mind. If the whole Maori thing is so great, why doesn't the market go there all on its own? Why the need to use my money to force it into places it really doesn't fit?? eg Looked at my passport tonight. The new circuit chip in the back has a technical description on it. And it is in Maori on the reverse side. Lord knows why? How many border guards around the world will read it in Maori???

To be honest, I don't know if you can answer any of my questions, but I think Maori leaders are simply after power and accordingly will not be swayed from their task by good reason.

Well where do I start?

Paul thanks for going in to bat for me whilst I was out putting in my 11 hour day supporting my staff and ensuring that our business makes enough money to stay there and perhaps contribute to societies ills by paying tax to support the bludgers, welfare recipients and so on. It not easy these days as they are demanding more and more.

After watching the news tonight with reference to the tangi I'm more than convinced that it is an exercise in drama, PR and distancing people from responsibilty.
The tangi was described as celebrating the life of a three year old child, a victim of massive abuse. Now to my mind there is no way anyone can celebrate on the life of a child so badly treated unless it is to salve their own souls. Had that person been many years older and died without being bashed and beaten then we could happily and cheerfully say that we should celebrate, but not 3 year old murder victim.
The problem here is that the guilty and associates can releive their consciences and no longer feel gutlity of the fact because no one stands up and rocks the boat and calls the killing for what it was, MURDER.
They all stand around in a group hug, have a party and all is forgiven. Well its not and saying sorry doesn't make it better.
As I have said earlier it won't be until leadership gets angry with this behavoir that it will begin to be solved. It is starting and Kelly and Mary-Peka are at the forefront and all strentgh to their arm. Unfortunately they have the continuing uphill stuggle to get Maori men in leadership to acknowledge the issues and stand up and make a difference.

Being the beneficial owner of a number of rental houses in Rotorua, including close to the crime scene and in the Ford Block (which for those that don't know is where Dunn based his story of "Once were Warriers") I could probably go on all night about the sorts of behavoir that I have seen and the way in which many of these families live. I could tell you about the bashings, the drugs, the steeling, the gang culture, the abuse of the women, the welfare abuse and on and on.
I have had a tenant that was a carbon copy of the Kuka woman and after the police and welfare put her in a safe house I had to repair the wooden doors that had large knife holes in them after she went for her gang allocated toy boy who stole her cash card and at 12 midnight took all her money. She was mid 30's, four kids and he was 19. To me she was always pleasant and in fact I used to enjoy talking to her but then I didn't represent any threat to her.
Watching Kuka tonight there was no life in her eyes, no emotion, her soul was buried deep a long time ago.
Do I make any apologies for saying it how I see it, no. If that upsets some sensabilities so be it and I guess today I feel a bit like Winston Peters must everytime he mentions immigration, his opponents leap to their feet and accuse him of rasicim without actually bothering to check out the message he was delivering. In my case in pointing out the reality of a groups actions which are decidedly racist I seemingly have become the racist.
No, I just don't like their behavoir and attitudes to others and I'ii say so.

Paul, firstly, thank you for your donation. I might suggest you join as well as it amounts to about the same thing. $20 is the membership and you are kept informed. You will see they offer suggests to prevent criminal behaviour as well as promoting longer sentences. I do not expect everyone to share my agenda. However, many of us accuse the politicians and Maori, particularly the leaders of just wanting to engage in a talk fest. I hope some members of this forum are prepared to do more than just talk. I hope I am not expecting too much. I accept some people may be short of money. But I would hope that more could donate either time or money to causes they feel strongly about. Hopefully everyone can take part in the three minutes silence tomorrow.

Now I think many on this forum will know I have strong view on the militant homosexuals demands. If I state the fact that homosexuals are overrepresented in HIV and sexual abuse of adolescents in relation to their numbers in the general population I may offend some homosexuals of members who may have homosexual family members. I believe that is their problem and not mine. However, if some well known left wing homosexual or previously closet homosexual dies of AIDS, there would posts I could make that I know would be offensive and likely to offend. I therefore would realise it was the wrong time and I would not make them.

In regard using ones name I can understand many people not using there own for employment or business reasons. However, when people hide behind a pseudonym to post abuse to a race or religion it is a different matter.

The issue is what is opinion and what is abuse. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Paul likewise I generally agree with your posts but on this one we are obviously on different wave lengths and there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't put any thing in the category of taboo or consider them sacrosanct
but I believe that we need to be a little more careful some times how we express an opinion.

I have a reputation for being very critical about many things,particularly those things that effect individual rights or beliefs, I also have an abhorrance for State controls inflicted on us by Government or the Bureaucrats.

No offence taken re your comment that my last statement sounded like Government propaganda,let me assure you this Government would never have my support nor would I proffer any support for it.

Sorry Chuck, missed your post, didn't mean to ignore you.
Your comments are fairand reasonably made. All power to you (& Christine type folk) for their efforts. Some people just have different agendas so please don't be too mad if others' agendas vary to yours. But having said this I will send off a donation to the sensible Sensible Sentencing Trust cos they speak sense and your plea is reasonable.

As for tangis and everything cultural. If the criticism doesn't apply to a person, why take offence? Rawiri Taonui, racist "academic" and prolific article contributor to the papers claims child porn is a problem of European cultures but we don't jump up and down about it. I would be more impressed if he showed why European culture per se contributes to this, but even with his stretched imagination I am not insulted because I hate kiddy porn scumbag more than anything and whilst I am of "European"blood, I am not insulted in the least. It simply does not apply to me. It is all about insecurity and I aver that people are much more likely to be insecure when their entire belief system upon which they have built their lives is just a stack of sand and not able to cut the mustard in the 21st Century.

Oh yeah, as for using names.... Bit tricky for some of us to use our real names due to sensitive nature of our other involvements....... Maybe Viking works for the SIS or Nicky Hager's Hollow Men???

Peter G, whilst I usually concur with your posts, this time I must disagree. Firstly, why do you call "criticism"an "attack on culture"? Youseem to be suggesting that anything 'cultural' is taboo and sacrosanct. Ever wondered why we can't fix the so-called "ethnic related" issues?? Because we are too afraid to criticise. It used to be that way with religion, but eventually academic theological pursuit managed to get past the "infallibility" of the office and the Church was no longer immune to criticism. And hallelujah for that.

So, accordingly, unless there is personal nastiness involved, there ain'tno such thing as a taboo subject as far as I am concerned. You suggest people seldom acknowledge their own cultural deficiencies,but if you have any to point out, bring it on. I will probably agree. But then, I have nothing to hide. I want to achieve the best result for society, not for my own wee fiefdom and tribal-based stranglehold on power and allt he other lucrative goodies that magically seem to go along with "things cultural". Yep, Viking may be guilty of lacking tact at times, but as long as his criticism is well intentioned (which I believe it to be), long may it continue to flow forth.

Me personally, I don't give a flying rodent's you know what if people take offence. That is their problem, and usually it is a front to keep their little kingdom safe lest it crumble under scrutiny. If my or anyone else's criticisms are substantially inappropriate, (or personally rude), please take us to task. But otherwise the cloak of cultural protection must be removed and the truth exposed.

Don't take offence, but your last paragraph sounded a little like a Government Department propaganda statement. We don't need partnerships or joint ownership or anything of the sort. What we need is to stop excusing behaviour we all know is wicked and remove the recalcitrants from society. Anyone care to wager how many criminal convictions exist within the wider Curtis family????

Paul, I think you will realise from my reference to taniwhi I accept there are reasonable ways to criticise Maori culture. I agree with you in regards racist legislation relating to funerals. If a Maori can get paid time off work to go to a third cousin’s tangi it is wrong that a European must take unpaid leave to go to the funeral of the wife of a good friend.

I do not know how many tangis you have been to but I have been to a few and have not seen any paid mourners. However, I can think of a few of European decent who probably would require a few.

This is getting off the main topic which is Viking’s post. In my opinion just as radical Maori’s comments reflect on all Maori, Viking’s tactless comments reflect on this forum. At least the radical Maori are prepared to use their name.

Thanks Peter G for your support.

I will clarify why I am so angry on this issue. Family First NZ, For the Sake of Our Children Trust and the Sensible Sentencing Trust have joined together to call on all NZ’ers to stand against child abuse this Wednesday. These three organizations to the best of my knowledge do not receive government funding. I have been a paid up member of the Sensible Sentencing Trust for some time but am not a member of the other two organizations. I am less than impressed by those who are so passionately negative on the issue of child abuse but not prepared to do anything positive.

I have no doubt some members of this forum may be struggling financially. However, I have been a member of this forum for some time and I do not think this is the case for the majority and a $20 donation or membership fee would not cause great hardship.

No doubt some members give to other worthwhile charities. However, if members were prepared to support these people who give of their time to fight child abuse people might think their primary motivation is saving children and not bashing Maori.

Viking is of course right that people have a choice on donating money. I also have right to condemn out and out racist posts that help divide this country.

To reiterate I totally support what Peter G said. I am not opposed to people discussing Maori issues, race or religion. However, I would hope forum members should know the difference between opinion and something that would cause offence to a reasonable person.

Kind regards
Chuck

As I have posted previously I respect everybody's right to an opinion and their right to express that opinion,however attacks on specific cultural beliefs are totally inappropriate as far as I am concerned and it is disappointing to see this forum used to attack Maori or any other culture.

Viking there are some bad aspects of all cultures but seldom do people acknowledge their own cultural deficientcies,prefering to find fault with other backgrounds and beliefs and blaming them for all our societal ills.

We are far from a perfect society and as long as we seek to blame others instead of jointly seeking the solutions to our problems we will continue on a path of destruction.

What we need is joint ownership of the problems and a true partnership between The state and all peoples of the community,only then will we start addressing the real issues

Chuck, I believe Viking was responding to an issue I raised, so allow me to comment.

Maori protocol and behaviour, particularly in formal settings, often follows clearly outlined procedures. In my opinion this leads to such a culture's adherents adopting a "role playing" lifestyle. This is one of the dangers of still following protocols that were created in the Stone Age. Ritual had its place back then because people were ignorant and unable to act with independence. But times have changed.

Maori funerals are a good example. Everyone attends, even if your connection to the deceased is a tenuous one. We even have a racist piece of legislation created to allow "one days bereavement leave" for "extended family" Maori funerals. These are often a rort and used as an excuse to get off work. "Official" mourners are employed to wail and everyone follows along, often displaying a level of grief somewhat out of proportion to the roximity of the alleged relationship with the deceased.

If you observe the behaviour of Maori representatives in particular when interviewed, you get a sense of grandstanding in grief. The danger of living life as a series of roles is that you end up behave according to established protocols rather than according to your own feelings of views. I suggest that this is the case with public and high profile Maori funerals.

Sure, the family is entitled to grieve, but think back to the Kahui twins murder and recall the grandstanding that took place for the cameras. Finally a chance to get their face on tv and play the "elder" or "spokesman" role. There is far too much "role playing" in Maori communities. Why do you think evil deeds get ignored? It just isn't accepted practice to speak out so the abuse gets hushed up. And on it goes.

I agree Viking's vernacular may seem a little blunt (I have copped it before too!), but I think I agree with his sentiments.

Viking, if you want to suggest I phrase my posts in a nice manner I suggest you consider what you post. Your post is racist and offensive and more importantly inappropriately timed. I have not problem with people complaining about taniwhi holding up a motorway. Neither is it a problem rubbishing colonisation claim made by members of the Maori party.

A young girl has been murdered. The majority of her relations were not involved in her murder. They do have right to grieve in their own manner according to their customs.

If you wish to make such comments as least show the courage to use you own name as do these women whose custom you choose to ridicule.

Chuck Bird

What is a tangi after all. A bloody great party complete with wails, employer subsidised days off and often employer subsidised supplies to feed then all.
No wonder they don't want to stop this behavoir. There wouldn't be an excuse for another party.

Poverty did this! I don't think so. Maybe poverty of the mind and spirit.

There are grafic pictures that go with this and many will receive the email that contains them. Ngatikaura Ngati was removed from a loving home and sent to live with abusive birth parents.

Each night Ngatikaura Ngati would climb into bed and tell his adoptive mum Kura and dad Finau that he loved them before clasping his little hands together in prayer. He'd then fall asleep in a bedroom full of family photos and toys, with pictures of Winnie the Pooh and Piglet keeping watch over him from the door.

During the day the 3-year-old would play his ukulele, sing on his karaoke machine or enjoy trips to the beach or zoo with Kura and Finau who had cared for him since he was one month old. He was a happy child.

A child who was clearly loved. But three weeks after his third birthday everything changed in Ngati's life.

His birth mother Maine Ngati decided she wanted him back from her cousin Kura so Ngati was plucked from the only home he'd ever known.

The South Auckland toddler was thrown into a completely unfamiliar environment. A new home in Otara where there were four other children, including a newborn baby. A home where there was a mattress on the floor

but no blankets, and no Winnie the Pooh on the door.Ngati's new family spoke English. He had grown up speaking only Tongan so he struggled to communicate with his siblings and parents.

The toilet-trained toddler suddenly started regularly wetting his pants and developed a weeping

ulcer the size of a man's hand on his bottom. His birth mother sought no medical treatment, instead covering it with a sanitary pad. Ngati was quickly transformed from a happy and confident boy to a terrified child
who would mess his pants then try to throw the evidence out of the
window to avoid the beating that would always follow.

Three short months after he moved in with his birth mother he was dead. Pathologists have argued in court over the exact cause of his death, but there was no dispute he was covered in injuries.Graphic photographs taken during Ngati's post-mortem showed a body that had suffered from repeated beatings. He had so many bruises that the officer investigating his death stopped counting after 50.


This week, Ngati's birth mother Maine Ngati and stepfather Teusila Fa'asisila were found guilty of inflicting

those injuries. Guilty of Ngati's manslaughter.A jury at the High Court in Auckland heard how Maine, 32, would punch Ngati in the face, strike him with a stick and whack him around the head when he was naughty.

His 27-year-old stepfather beat him with whatever weapon was lying nearby. Being naughty wasn't hard. Sometimes it was messing his pants. Other times Ngati did not move fast enough or play a game the right way. Once he didn't say "yes Mum". Another time he didn't jump like a frog.

On January 30 last year, the first of what would be the last series of beatings in Ngati's short life occurred at 10am after he did a "kaka" (faeces) in his pants. Maine later told police she was so angry she

picked up a stick and beat Ngati all over his body - except his head. There she used her hand. After the beating Maine put her son in the bath. Police say it would have been obvious at this point that Ngati was

injured and in pain. His left arm was so badly damaged that it had swollen to twice its normal size. But instead of seeking help for her son, Maine put him to bed. Later in the day, Ngati awoke on his mattress

on the floor needing to go to the toilet. He tried to get up but was unable to due to his injuries, in particular his arm which had no strength. Unable to hold on Ngati wet his pants - triggering yet another beating from his mother when she found him.

By that night, when his stepfather showered him, police say it would have been impossible not to have seen all of Ngati's injuries." He was beaten black and blue all over," said investigating officer Detective Senior Sergeant Richard Middleton." This is as bad as anything I have seen on a child or any human. The only thing that was keeping him alive [at that stage] was his young heart." But Ngati's young heart could only take so much and the following morning he received his final beatings - one from his mother and later one from his stepfather. Fa'asisila told police that Ngati had "kaka'ed" himself that morning. To discipline him he picked up a stick, made the boy stand with his hands on the wall and lift up his feet. He then he beat the soles of his feet.

Police didn't believe this version of events, saying Ngati's soles were the only part of his body that weren't bruised.

They, and the jury, believed the account other children gave them - the one in which Fa'asisila picked up a baseball bat and beat him with it all over his body, except his head. Physical evidence also supported this view. When police searched the Otara home they found a bat tucked out of site. It was covered in Ngati's blood. The child's blood was also found throughout the house.In two rooms - the living area and Ngati's bedroom - the blood had splattered so high it hit the ceiling. That was impact splatter, splatter caused by an object hitting Ngati while he was already bleeding. On the floors and walls the blood had been diluted - a sign police say that the parents had tried to wash the evidence away.

The baseball bat beating occurred in the morning while Maine was out at a job interview.During the afternoon, after Maine had returned, Ngati's condition deteriorated to the point that he was drifting in and out of consciousness. At times he stopped breathing. At one point, while Maine performed CPR, Fa'asisila suggested calling for an ambulance, but she said no because "then they will find out".

At 5pm Fa'asisila went to get his uncle who lived nearby. The uncle arrived and told the couple to call an ambulance immediately. On the phone, Maine told the St John operator she had beaten Ngati with a stick but showed more concern for herself than her dying son."She said, 'are you going to call the police?'," said Mr Middleton.

"Even at that stage she was still more worried about what was going to happen to her than what happened to Ngati."Ngati was rushed to Middlemore Hospital, then transferred to Starship where his adoptive mother Kura Kaufusi stayed with him till he died.

Before he took his final breath Kura leaned over his swollen and distorted body and whispered in his ear for him to "go in peace".Kura and her husband Finau are still struggling with his violent death."I feel like my heart's gone. My heart's been ripped out of my body because he was our heart,"

said Kura. "I thought I would get over it by now but I can't."Finau spends a lot of time at Ngati's tiny grave, keeping it clean and tidy; Kura often watches videos the couple took of his first steps, his birthdays, all his important milestones. The couple were unable to have children and didn't hesitate to take Ngati in when Maine Ngati asked them to have him when he was a baby."He was a happy little boy. He called us Mummy and Daddy. He didn't know anyone else," said Kura. Then in November 2005 Maine wanted Ngati back despite having very little to do with him for three years.

Police were told Maine Ngati was claiming a benefit for more children than were living with her and it was the threat of being caught out and revenge against her cousin with whom she'd fought - that led to her seeking custody."

There's nothing that I have seen that showed she wanted Ngati back for reasons of love," said Mr Middleton.A distraught Kura fought for custody of Ngati. She now regrets doing it the "right way" through lawyers and wishes she had instead whisked Ngati away to a place her cousin would have never found him. Maybe, she says, he would have still be alive that way."I was trying to do it the right way but as a result he was dead within nine weeks." Kura said she tried to visit Ngati at his new home but no one would ever answer the door. She worries he never knew why he suddenly had to change houses and had no contact with the only people he'd ever known as Mum and Dad."I will always feel guilty because in his mind when he was getting bashed he was probably saying 'where's my mum, where's my dad?'."

Mr Middleton said it was not clear how often Ngati was beaten but it "certainly escalated" in the last two days of his life. He believes the toileting problem was evidence of the boy's state of mind while in Maine and Fa'asisila's care." My thoughts on that are that they beat him so much that he lost confidence and he wet and pooed himself because he got so many beatings." Mr Middleton said Ngati's final hours would have been excruciating. When the pathologist cut open his swollen arm they found all the tissue had died from the beating he had suffered. There was a subdural haematoma which was 5-10 days old as well as fresher trauma to the head from the recent beatings. There was also an unusual patterning with bits of skin missing from his arm, wrist and inside thigh - those injuries are from a weapon police have been unable to find. They say Maine Ngati and Fa'asisila got rid of the weapon - more evidence that the couple knew what they were doing was wrong.Kura and her husband did not see Ngati after he moved and it is not clear if other relatives were aware of the abuse the little boy suffered - they certainly denied any knowledge of it while giving evidence in court. Ngati's siblings testified and are now being cared for by others.

Mr Middleton said it was possible the beatings never occurred in the presence of other adults, but it was hard to believe no one noticed anything wrong.

On the morning of Ngati's death one of Maine's relative said she gave him a high-five during breakfast and everything seemed fine.

This would have been after he suffered two serious beatings the day before, one so bad that he was unable to use his arm." It's impossible to think he was 'quite happy' the morning he died." Mr Middleton believes it
may have been a case of other relatives "wilfully ignoring" what was going on. "The other family members at best didn't want to know." In somefamilies abuse of this nature is commonplace and every now and then it turns to tragedy as it has in this case. The answer is never hit your kids." Kura agrees and says it sickens her to see what happened to Ngati.

She no longer considers Maine a relative and says the only blessing in Ngati's death is that he is now "away from the devils." I'm glad they got guilty . That will be justice for my little man."*

Maine and Fa'asisila were charged with murder. They were found not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter. They were also found guilty of a separate charge of manslaughter for failing to provide medical care which could have saved Ngati's life and for wilful ill-treatment of a child. They will be sentenced next month . It is clear that our children are being let down by the legal system, this is once again highlighted by the ridiculous sentences handed down by the High Court jury who found 32-year-old Maine Ngati and her partner Teusila Faasisla not guilty of murder, but guiltyof manslaughter, after the child was beaten to death. Each was sentenced to eight-and-a-half years in jail for the manslaughter
and will be up for parole in four years.

These monsters beat this defenceless 3 year old boy for days with an aluminium baseball bat and oar. His entire body was covered in bruises and his blood was found in every inch of the house.

Not only is this case preposterous but it sets precedent for cases to come. I believe each and every one of us should have a say and we stand together on this we will make a difference. I refuse to stand by and let these injustices go by again and again. This petition demands more severe punishments are to be handed out to those who abuse our children!

Ah how time goes by but nothing really changes. Kiro and co are a bunch of absolute nutheads. That woman is not fit to sweep the floor, let alone pretend to be the Children's Commissioner. Surely some deal was made with Clark for her to be appointed??? One can be certain the appointment was not made on merit, but then, that IS the Maori way after all.....

On TV3 news tonight they showed the funeral charade for baby Nia. As usual, a family spokeperson waxes on about how things must change, how the family must grieve etc etc. Sick as it is, I suspect these people almost enjoy the opportunity to bask in the limelight. Their entire behaviour is simply an act, put on as a show. But hey, that is the Maori way after all. Nothing will change and we will forget Nia just as we have forgotten all those other poor kids who got bashed to death by dysfunctional thugs. You just cannot fix the problem until you accept the actual cause thereof. Take all the racist so-called "Maori leaders" out for the question and you may have a chance to fix it. Seek their input and you will merely play the game as it has been done for so long already.

Not even sure why we bother anymore.

If killing your kids with violence was a poverty problem we would never have to talk about it in NZ. No one in NZ need be in poverty and if they are it is of their own making. Poverty is when you live in gutters because there is nowhere else because there is no money and no support of any kind.
By our standard of living many Malasians, Phillipino's, Vetnamese, Bangladeshi's etc live in real poverty but they don't bash their kids like the Maoris, so stop defending the indefensible.

What wasn't said in the post was that the incidence has grown along with the uptake of the DPB . A fact that was also in the report that was quoted from.

Frankly I am sick of hearing the Peter Dunne's and the Cindy Kiro's of this world profering their version of how bad things are and what needs to be done.

We all know how bad the violence is and it should also be noted that it is not only with our children,it is across all age groups .What we need is a workable partnership between the State and the Community to do something about it.

Kiro want's more programmes,she should stop and look at how many have been destroyed by the politics of this Government and her philosophy regarding Parental responsibility,which she preaches then takes away from caring parents.

Nothing will change until enough people demand that it does,lets stop pointing at each other and work together to resolve the situation