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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Do Disability Benefits Discourage Work?

Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) is intended to replace lost income for people suffering from a disability that is likely to cause substantial long-term losses in earnings. A concern has been that SSDI may have a disincentive effect on the willingness of recipients to work -- that is, that some SSDI beneficiaries would work if they did not receive benefits, say Nicole Maestas and Kathleen J. Mullen of the RAND Corporation.

The authors examined SSDI applications between 2005 and 2006, focusing on a "natural experiment" that arises from the disability determination process itself: Some of the disability examiners who decide these cases are more stringent than others. This allowed Maestas and Mullen to compare work activity among similar applicants who were initially allowed or denied benefits only because their applications were randomly assigned to disability examiners with different propensities to allow benefits.

Maestas and Mullen found that those who have impairments that are on the margin of allowance for SSDI benefits are strongly discouraged from returning to work if they are awarded benefits.

They also found that those who are relatively less impaired are substantially more likely to return to work if denied benefits, whereas beneficiaries with the most severe impairments would not be any more likely to work if they had not received SSDI.

The finding highlights a major inefficiency in program operations: potentially redundant and inconsistent processing of a large fraction of applicants who are ultimately allowed to receive benefits. This kind of evidence should be useful to policymakers and taxpayers who are interested in constraining the growth of the SSDI program.

Source: Nicole Maestas and Kathleen J. Mullen, "Do Disability Benefits Discourage Work?" RAND Corporation, August 2011.
For text: http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_briefs/WB111.html


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Brash: Bribing politicians' chickens come home to roost

ACT New Zealand, Fuseworks
July 31, 2011, 2:48 pm

ACT New Zealand leader Dr Don Brash says an article on today's Stuff.co.nz headed "Pre-teens dream of kids and dole" is an indictment of the entitlement mentality and generations of politicians who have created and pandered to it.

The article, by Imogen Neale, begins, "Lots of babies, lots of partners, lots of houses and lots of benefits. Welcome to the career dream of young boys already failing in the education system."

It goes on to describe how Alison Sutherland, who works in Wairarapa schools with children who have behavioural problems, says many of the boys she deals with - who haven't even reached their teenage years - can only see being the father of children and living with their mothers ahead.

Ms Sutherland says youngsters opt out of education and employment "because they see babies as a source of income." She adds they have a "complete lack of understanding of what being a good parent might entail."

In many cases they're just emulating what they see at home: "They live with mum, who often has a number of children and boyfriends. Their reality is that the men in their lives live off mum, so they say, `Why would I get a job? I don't need one, I'll be like whoever the chap is who is living with mum at the moment'."

"ACT has long argued that the present welfare system makes precisely these sorts of outcomes inevitable," says Dr Brash.

"We would end this immoral arrangement whereby youngsters unfit to be parents are effectively bribed by vote-seeking politicians to have babies for their cash value: babies whom in many cases they go on to abuse and kill.

"It saddens me as a politician to say it, but In this sense, politicians have been the worst child-abusers of all for decades now.
"At the upcoming election my party will be proposing education and welfare policies that would end this iniquitous, inhuman racket as soon as possible," Dr Brash concludes.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:24 am 
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Quote:
Pre-teens dream of kids and dole
IMOGEN NEALE

Lots of babies, lots of partners, lots of houses and lots of benefits. Welcome to the career dream of young boys already failing in the education system.

Alison Sutherland, who works in Wairarapa schools with children who have behavioural problems, says many of the boys she deals with – who haven't even reached their teenage years – can only see being the father of children and living with their mothers ahead.

"That is their career future," she said of youngsters who were opting out of education and employment because they saw babies as a source of income.

But coupled with the desire for children was a complete lack of understanding of what being a good parent might entail.

"There is no warmth about loving little children or wanting to be good parents. It is purely about this being a pathway to an income," the one-time principal of a youth justice facility school said.

"They have a perception that their future is to be unemployed. That is their norm. They have no sensitivity for the children – they see it as their form of income."

Sutherland said in some cases the children were merely repeating what they saw in their own homes.

"They perceive that they'll get a girl pregnant. She will be on some form of benefit and will get a house, and that they'll live with them, and that is their income.

"They live with mum, who often has a number of children and boyfriends."

Despite that gloomy outlook, Sutherland remains committed to helping her young charges and changing their perceptions.

"I'm trying to encourage the boys to be at school to learn, so they can get a job. Their reality is that the men in their lives live off mum, so they say, `Why would I get a job? I don't need one, I'll be like whoever the chap is who is living with mum at the moment'."

The sole-parent domestic purposes benefit is available to those over 18 who are not in a relationship with the other parent and do not have a partner, or who have lost their support.

The Work and Income website says the net weekly rate is $288.47, although it can be reduced if the other parent isn't legally identified.

Under 18-year-olds who are alone, caring for children and can't support themselves can apply for an Emergency Maintenance Allowance.

Late last year the Ministry of Social Development said it was difficult to estimate how many young men were fathers because their names weren't always on their children's birth certificates.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5365493 ... s-and-dole


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:14 pm 
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Quite true, quite true, downic, - and what a remarkable piece of rhetoric!

Now, how to translate this into politically achievable reality in a democratic - not dictatorial - scenario, like ours here in NZ at present?

What practical proposal do you suggest to get into the degree of independent freedom and prosperity you are so passionate about?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:48 pm 
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This is what we are all looking at.

You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation
.


Last edited by downic on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:55 pm 
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What a quote.

You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Dear Downic - ignoring any ideological (theoretical) sophistry or mud slinging if there is any of that on the "Ownership Democracy" site on this forum, I think most of the obvious arguments and explanations in favor of amending the NZ Super Fund into a permanent institution of Personal Accounts are there - and I am only too eager to discuss anything dubious or seemingly ineffective or self-contradictory.
Under the words "practical level...." I mean a realistically achievable level, which might not necessarily mean perfection, because with the variety of human tastes and preferences, perfection seems to be an unrealistic pipe dream.
In eager expectation of your comments - yours truly - Jens.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Jens I do not know the answer to your question regarding the “………pros and cons ON A PRACTICAL LEVEL on amending the NZ Super Fund into a permanent institution of Personal Accounts.”

Because I do not know enough about it.

All I have done so far is read some background articles about the history and the reasons why the Singaporean General Provident Fund was established by the British in 1955.

On the scale of my background reading and understanding this is a minor issue. An interesting fact, which may have more relevance in the future.

But thank you, if you had not brought the issue to NZCPR then I would not be aware of it. If you are interested in providing the relevant information then it would be worth reading.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:33 pm 
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Downic, in the realm of physical facts, the philosophical position is just a matter of human imagination, and I dare say, irrelevant as far as the measurable physical facts are concerned.

If we agree that the Singapore model is promising in the direction of reducing welfare dependency, it would be irrationally silly (in my mind) not to unite on that for the common goal to move towards eliminating welfare dependency, regardless of blind religion or philosophy on the importance of what or who is the basis of society.
The facts are, society consists of individuals, and it is easy to show by measurable physical facts, that ALL individuals in society are better off through participation by ALL in a constructive effort for a bigger National Product - which does not exclude non-destructive individual competition for better results - than fighting each other for a bigger slice of the National Product produced - the current tussle between haves and have-nots, which cannot be made non-existent in a democracy based on shifting majority support.

So, I am not challenging your philosophy or religion at all - but ask only for your pros and cons ON A PRACTICAL LEVEL on amending the NZ Super Fund into a permanent institution of Personal Accounts.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Jens, we have already debated your question. You know that we have very different philosophical positions.

You believe that the collective is the basic unit of society
I believe the individual is the basic unit of society.

I see the Singaporean General Provident Fund solely as a possible means, a step along the way, to abolish the welfare state. The welfare state is harmful to all individuals.

You see the Singaporean General Provident Fund as glowing example of a compulsory savings scheme, which will make the welfare state, the collective, better.

We are heading in opposite directions.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:20 pm 
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Who says theft is inherently wrong?

=| I do. Theft is wrong because you are taking away from another human being something that has been created by that persons efforts, without that persons consent. You are attacking an extension of that person’s life. In principle you are trying to stop that person from living. For whatever excuse, you see the victim as a means to your ends. |=

ADAC, I find it difficult to understand that you would raise such question.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:42 pm 
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Adac - regardless of what has been done or not done in the past, to start arguing that theft is not wrong, is sophisticated nonsense - but I excuse you for that on the grounds, that downic - or the "Objectivists" - seem to have initiated this nonsense by declaring taxation "theft".
Theft is commonly understood as something taken secretly, robbery if taken against one's will openly by force, and something taken through legally mandated taxation is neither, but outright "nationalization" as was done under communist rule in Eastern Europe would be "expropriation", legalized or not.
Let us not waste time on that.
But Adac, you should not blame capitalism - the creation and application of capital, without which we would still be at the pre-stone-age hand-to-mouth survival level of the animal kingdom - - for its arguable and real misapplication in the past, because the latter was only a reflection of historical tradition based realities and their evaluation at any particular time and place.
As to the question on how to improve capitalism and make it more effective, fair and all-inclusive (to relieve us of the mutually antagonistic socio-economic schism of haves and have-nots) - what do you think of Ownership Democracy, defined through a policy effort towards at least a minimally meaningful level of personal (retirement) wealth ownership by all citizens eventually, and relatively easily initiated (we are half way there already) through amending the NZ Super Fund into a Permanent Institution of Personal Accounts, with contributions to the latter built into our taxation system?


Last edited by Jens Meder on Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:23 pm 
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downic wrote:
If a moral principle, e.g. theft is wrong when applied to an individual it is equally wrong when applied to the collective. The collective being just a group of individuals.

The socialists have managed to invert this principle. They claim that it is not wrong when applied to the collective. This is how the welfare state has grown.

From each according to his ability to each according to his needs. Using this principle how do you draw a line.

Who says theft is inherently wrong?

If a poor man takes from a wealthy man to feed his children, is that wrong? What if the wealthy man became wealthy because of links with the prevailing political party and his influence on politicians to bend policies in his favour (which is basically how capitalism works). It was overwhelming and systemic poverty which led British settlors to emigrate to NZ in the 1800s - where they then took land from Maori. And now Maori are generally poorer that the pakeha. Do Maori have the right to steal/demand/negotiate to get it back...?

If government demands taxes for the good of everyone, is that wrong? Of course not. What should the taxes be spent on? Now that's a different question - and the answer depends on which party and which ideology currently dominates the political debate.

The point is government is not based on black and white moral principles. In a so-called democracy, its based on expediency and different ideas about what will benefit the greatest number. The answers are seldom simple and some groups in society don't want to help everyone - only those who adhere to their particular ideology.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:39 pm 
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O.K, downic. Then let us investigate the pros and cons of introducing a NZSF contributions savings rate built into our taxation system, to achieve reduced welfare dependency.
What exactly are your doubts about it, as implied by your word MAY?


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 Post subject: Re: Why Welfare Needs to be Reformed
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Jens, To clarify. A Singaporean type General Provident Fund is a government system that could be used to get rid of the welfare state. This is an idea worth investigating.

It may not be so?

The rest of your ideas, as I have states previously, do not interest me.


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