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 Post subject: Readers' Comments
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:29 am 
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*Not that that will stop the current regime from enforcing their will. After all they are Socialists and that's what Socialists always do! Peter

*What is motivating our schoolteachers to teach half-truths and prejudged opinion as definitive fact? Have they no sense of what it means to be ""Professional""? Alan

*Education MUST NOT be tainted with Politics. Maurice

**Educate not "brainwash". Teach facts, not opinion. Bryan

*I just hate more regulations....but our children should not be indoctrinated by political views. It is dangerous and tantamount to evil... Colleen

*I strongly support your poll that if a political issue is raised, schools are required to offer a balanced presentation of opposing views. Herbert

*Absolutely !!!! David

*THERE "MUST" BE "BALANCE" AND NOT AS IN CHINA WITH THEIR "LITTLE RED BOOK" LOOK WHERE THAT GOT THEIR CHAIRMAN. KENNETH

*But political indoctrination is the Socialist way! John

*We should definitely have that provision included. However I wouldn't be inclined to hold my breath as on this happening as our government is not in the habit of protection where it is needed but great at interference when it suits their agenda. Anne

*Government indoctrination is a worrying factor which needs to be rectified now! Mal

*Yes, unless by 'political' there is an inference of human rights and law-abiding values, in which case a level of "indoctrination" is most definitely a positive measure. Marty

*The education system in this country is in serious decline. I have seen that by having children ranging from 32 to 18 years old. The latter despite being a lovely person I'm sorry to say has suffered the communitst do gooder infiltration more than the others. Sharron

*Aunty Helen needs to be stopped!! Geoff

*Impartiality in the teaching of political issues in schools is inordinately difficult to achieve. And no matter of clever drafting of legislation will change this fact. Bruce

*But that will not happen while the present Government is in power. The desire to "fix" us while they can, remains very strong. Hugh

*If we allow this to carry on, Labours socialist views will be so enrenched in our society, it'll take several generations to correct. Brent

*Duh! It's always interesting that the left want to indoctriante and the 'right' just want the fact and the ability to reason and think taught. Linda

*We have removed all four of our daughters from Health classes for this very reason. Margaret

*This is an area of real concern but how do we effect change? I feel so sad, helpless and irritated that these changes are taking place but that we seem to have no way of effectively stopping or changing them. Hellllllllllllp!! John S

*Political propaganda is something that the fascists and communists use, has our government now become like them. Machiavelli, Mao, Stalin, Hitler and the rest, all used this sort of manipulation of the masses. Save our children from this dishonest attempt by the government to manipulate their minds to such mindless ideologies. Walter

*The climate change debate of rising CO2 levels is based on 30 years of data. There are too many people earning a living from misrepresenting climate change and global warming. Don't let our kids be further brain washed by gores American propoganda. Bill

*Teachers have the best opportunity to instill views and ideas into childrens minds. After all they go to school to learn. What they should learn is that there are at least 2 sides to every story.In the early 1980s our son had a run in with his teacher who was a HART supporter and very anti all white South Africans. We had an exchange styudent from South Africa staying with us on a Lions Youth Programme and this was the second one we had hosted. We had also hosted youths from Japan, Sweden, UK, USA and more so we could tell if we were getting a fair view on life in their countries. My son, aged 11, challenged the teacher on her strong views and said he would bring Kate to talk about her homeland. The teacher dismissed it and gave him a hard time for the rest of the year that he was in her class. She didn't want to be undermined when she had made a statement.An emotive issue and an inflexible opinion.
The sooner our schools teach in an unbiased way the better. Children aren't stupid and will sort out the truth for themselves but if they are given distorted interpretations theywill start to doubt many other things which they have been taught which is not a good enough reason for biased teaching. Mike

*The teacher unions will oppose any change to the Education Act because they are predominantly of the socialist persuasion and so want the children to be brainwashed so that they will accept left wing propaganda. Allan

*Absolutely !. Teacher's Unions are paymasters to the Labour Party Peter

*Young minds are very open to "conditioning". This is socialism at best - communism at worst and there are plenty of examples around the world that have demonstrated the dangers of such indoctrination from Nazi Germany to the Communist regimes in Russia and China to the terrorist acts that are now erruption around the world in the name of jehad. Carol

*Education and indoctrination are only synonomous in the Marxist lexicon. Education in its purest intent opens the mind to explore and to discover truth. It is liberating. Indoctrination in its worst manifestation focuses the mind into a proscribed channel that fetters thought and prevents alternative thinking beyond its confining paramaters. The problem is that socialist governments, such as we currently have in NZ, blur the distinctions between the two by being slightly less proscriptive, manipulating language, and appealing to 'research' and 'expert opinion' all of which obscures its base intent - to have the population adopt and practise its own political, economic and social agenda. And how better to do it than with the most maleable minds through our nation's schools. Then remove parental authority and the special respect inherent in that relationship and their minds belong to the state and its religion of naturalistic materialism. Too many big words? What sort of education did the state provide YOU? John B

*And education should be privatised so as to lift standards & give parents choices. Education should be teaching pupils how to learn, not what to learn. Chris

*Learning is about being able to look at something objectively. If the information delivered is not factual but based on political bias. This is not learning this is brainwashing. June

*Influencing children should not be allowed - there should be totally unbiased information given so that they can know both sides of the issues! Joy

*Lets get the basics right first. Terry

*The law should say they ALL have to be taught to research and debate BOTH SIDES of a political question, as I did 50 years ago in high school in the U.S. We had to take, alternatively, the pro and con sides of the argument, and make the case for them as debaters. In New Zealand for the last 20years my children have been taught only to argue the received politically correct view, not to use critical thinking skills on both arguments. If the curriculum needs one basic change, it is to teach formal logic and reasoning and critical thinking skills to challenge ANY argument, whatever side. Michael

*Teaching children how to think is not the same as telling them what to think. As a teacher for thirty years I rather hope that I set an example of cheerful and relentless scepticism, especially towards any currently fashionable PC nonsense... Ross

*This should be fundamental to the education system. Ian

*Education is a threefold process the first of which is to teach the child how to read, write and manage basic mathematics, the second is to develop acceptable social skills and the third is to develop the ability to analyse and investigate various topics be it scientific, social, political and so on and to enhance those skills from the first process. It is this final process that requires all sides of a discussion to be made available so that the student is able to make up his own mind as to the outcome of his investigation and use the available information to back up his argument. When the system is manipulated to only portray the views and ideals of those currently in power is when the whole thing starts to unravel. Students are then given no alternative viewpoint and if they choose to investigate further on their own using their own resources they are then seen as being outside the bounds of the curriculum and their work would be marked accordingly. Imagine the outcome if a student tried to argue against evolution by using the intelligent design theory, he would be marked as a fail simply because his work used an argument that is contrary to the curriculum. The same would hold for global warming and other subjects whose opposing viewpoints are not acceptable to those in power. What is more insidious is the presentation of “facts” that are downright lies as would appear in certain history subjects. I do agree that politics should be taught in the schools, at least at a senior level but all viewpoints should be made available and the students encouraged to source information outside the confines of the curriculum. This is where parental involvement is important in allowing and encouraging the child to be open to all viewpoints and where the schools should be seen to encouraging this involvement where appropriate. I know for a fact that if my child was to be forced to sit through Al Gores fairy tales then he would be forearmed with the facts prior to the showing and if the presentation of these facts was to be disallowed by the school then he would be sick on that day. Ian

*No political indoctrination should be tollerated especialy by maori actavists who now have positions in our schools. Michael

*Education should be politically neutral. How this is acheived I don't know as I find schools rather political places failing to each a balanced point of view and critical examination of truths and claims. Donald

*Don't know about British law but partisan politics should not impinge on other subjects. Politics as a specific subject must have balance, with no exclusions, as it's first priority. Dominic

*How dare we 'program' our children and play with their minds.
It's an abomination! Rise up NZ! Marian

*Having taught in the NZ state sytem for over twenty years then as principal in a private school for ten years then six years as an integrated school, I have no hesitation in saying that a move such as the British law is overdue by at least forty years! As a student I went through state schools and then a state teachers'college. It took another ten years including four years overseas before I realised how brainwashed I had been in that process. For the last twenty years I have been fighting to get across to people the way our schools have been indoctrinating pupils with politically motivated and distorted rubbish. When I returned from overseas and attended an in-service course, a senior secondary school inspector told me that the Social Studies curriculum was to brainwash the students into believing and thinking they way the state wanted so as to make New Zealand society fit their plans. Duncan

*Many scientists don't believe in global warming. Our planet has gone through many patterns of "warming" temperatures & "cooling " temperatures. To call it global warning is just a way of making money out of ordinary living people. Nuclear energy is NOT safe & if it ever is it'll be 10 to 20 years away. People have lived on the earth for centuries. I think young & older people should be taught the truth about our future. Caring for people less fortunate than ourselves. Al Gore is very incorrect scientifically about his "global warming" theories.I don't believe he should be 'spouting off' his unscientific theories. I suppose he walks to work everyday & only flies gliders. Set an example for people. Victor

*I think the decision about what is indoctrination and what is not should be made by independant officers with approval from at least 3 parties. Viv

*Children expect all adults to be honest with them, they lack the discrimination to know when they are being misled by people that they believe they can trust. It is intolerable that the feminist/socialist loons who have charge of their education are encouraged by the Government to to fill young minds with mush rather than facts...if this is allowed to continue I fear we may never see another Rutherford or Pearce ? Ron

*A movie like "an inconveniant truth" should not be shown in NZ schools at all beacuse there is no guarantee that the oposing views are going to be looked at fairly. For example you might get a real greeny for a teacher and they still state thier opinion even though they view both sides of the information, which to me is bias and unacceptable. Brooke

*Especially when its not true. I'm amazed that in Parliment recently, The speaker, announcing that MP's are not to challenge another speaker by saying "Are you telling the truth...?' if they do this they will have to apologise...Unbeliveable... Max

*They shouldn't have to be but... Keith

*This has been going on for some time, now it has become blatant and our kids education has been sacrificed to the idol of political and social manipulation. Chrissie

*I have passed on your article re. Al Gore's film and the U.K. court case to my daughter who is a teacher. Dorothy

*And this Government has the cheek to be critical of hidden agendas.
I think that what this Govt. is doing is far worse. Ray

*The schools have a responsibility to ensure an open and balanced debate. Al Gore's films is pure propaganda. Jasmine

*This is typical of their left wing political attitude to gain control of the minds of young children David

*I want independent thought in our people not brainwashing. Pat

*A further sign of the decline in standards that are being forced onto us and our children. Bruce

*I wait with baited breath for the UK Govt to send out copies of "The Great Global Warming Swindle" to schools across the country to balance it all up. Is that Likely? Yeah Right! Dave

*There is a large number of people out of waikato uni who are not educated to think in hard scientific facts and they get involved in green things and the rest of us are meant to believe them. BRYAN

*This government uses the education system to brainwash young people,a good example is the pushing of Maori, not only to schools but everywhere.There is no "balance" in what is rammed down their necks. Noel

*It is time to realise that all the rubbish about global warming is nothing but a political tool and there is little that we as humans can do to change what is happening ,these natural changes and earth shattering events have been going on since the world was created. Thank you for this revealing information. Derek

*Yes. The question is how.? Passing a Law is just that. Enforcing that Law is the problem. Perhaps a first start might be to get independant School Inspectors unconnected with the Education Ministry.From overseas Western Countries? This problem has been around for ages, since Lenin instituted Communism into Russian Schools and exported it around the Globe. Communism never dies merely mutates. Just Brian

*Who could rationally argue against this? Trevor

*Do it now, no time to waste. Irvine

*Yes, but how wide and effective would it be? I doubt that ""balance"" would extend to things like homosexuality, religion, the Holocaust etc. Brian

*Political indoctrination of children is child molestation -- it stunts their minds and interferes with their normal development and experience of life. Overprotected mollycoddled children make for totally unprepared adults. Peter

*I was recently shocked to see that my old high school was teaching politically correct crap. Clive

*Beyond belief isn't it ? Rob

*We send our children to schools expecting them to be taught the foundations for learning. We expect them to be encouraged to pick out the facts and the oipinions. It is a sad state of affairs when they could be indoctrinated with unsound power driven politics. Children and young people trust their teachers (on the whole) to teach them a fair view. It is apparent that parents need to be aware of what is being taught in schools and give their families guidance in the home. There is little wonder that so many parents choose to home-school their families. Dorothy

*I agree that we need to have balanced reporting. The problem is that people did not see that Al Gore's work had bias. That is the issue really. How many of us realise there is another side to what we are reading unless some person writes an article refuting it at the same time. Those in the know should be sought out to put up the other viewpoints for we who are in the "I must look it up, search it out" category. Robyn

*I want schools to stop teaching my children that Islam is ""good"" and that Christianity is not. I want schools to teach my children that any religion that is also a complete political system with an un-""holy"" book that instructs every follower to ""rid the Earth of the infidel"" is not good - in point of fact, it is VERY BAD. I want my kids to be taught that there are boundaries and that they are responsible and accountable. I want the queers and childless people who think they know how to raise productive adults to get off out of my and my children's lives. I actively unlearn my children's school lessons in ""tolerance"" (why should people with a different skin colour get preferential treatment? queers are are called queer because they are ""strange or unusual"" and they make up significantly less than 1% of the population - making the Normal person part of a 99% majority), ""religious diversity is good"" (not when it involves followers of Islam), ""NZ is clean and green"" (since when?). These people (Clark, Bradford, Cunliffe, Carter, Wilson, King, Dalziel, Turner, Dunne, Key, Collins, Benson-Pope et al) are doing a much better job than Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler ever managed in WW2 Germany...unfortunately Kiwi people are buying it without question. Bring on the Great Darkness! Mark

*Not only political interference, but the subtle change in schools' teaching "how" instead of "what", which is this government's agenda. Laurie

*As should we, the long suffering voters. Dave

*I notice that even history is being changed to suit certain agendas. Kevin

*There should be no political indoctrination of any sort taught in schools and there should be an act passed in Parliament to prevent this peter
Education in Schools as a Compulsory requirement should have apolitical views. Len

*One of the reasons our daughter & son-in-law have chosen to home educate their 5 children. Brenda

*The new religions of global warming,climate change etc.are just as bad as the old ones with their armageddon,hell & brimstone predictions;in other words continuing to play on people's insecurity with fear and irrationality. Monica


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 Post subject: Global Warming
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:04 am 
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Hi Nigel - I'm sorry to keep interrupting the debate ... this is where readers' comments on the weekly column and poll are posted and later today this topic will be moved into Hansard to make way for the new poll topic on MMP. So as to avoid confusion, if you would like to keep the debate on global warming going ... and it now seems to be definitely heating up! ... you might like to jump into the Gloabl Warming topic with some of your comments.


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 Post subject: Another inconvenient truth
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:21 am 
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Some rather learned people seem to think that Mr Gore has done a half decent job:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/101207J.shtml
Gore and UN Panel Win Peace Prize
The Associated Press Friday 12 October 2007


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 Post subject: Readers' Comments
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:09 pm 
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*Not that that will stop the current regime from enforcing their will. After all they are Socialists and that's what Socialists always do! Peter

*What is motivating our schoolteachers to teach half-truths and prejudged opinion as definitive fact? Have they no sense of what it means to be "Professional" ? Alan

*Education MUST NOT be tainted with Politics. Maurice

*Educate not "brainwash" Teach facts, not opinion. Bryan

*I just hate more regulations....but our children should not be indoctrinated by political views. It is dangerous and tantamount to evil... Colleen

*I strongly support your poll that if a political issue is raised, schools are required to offer a balanced presentation of opposing views. Herbert

*Absolutely !!!! David

*THERE "MUST" BE "BALANCE" AND NOT AS IN CHINA WITH THEIR "LITTLE RED BOOK" LOOK WHERE THAT GOT THEIR CHAIRMAN. KENNETH

*But political indoctrination is the Socialist way! John

*We should definitely have that provision included. However I wouldn't be inclined to hold my breath as on this happening as our government is not in the habit of protection where it is needed but great at interference when it suits their agenda. Anne

*Government indoctrination is a worrying factor which needs to be rectified now! Mal

*Yes, unless by 'political' there is an inference of human rights and law-abiding values, in which case a level of "indoctrination" is most definitely a positive measure. Marty

*The education system in this country is in serious decline. I have seen that by having children ranging from 32 to 18 years old. The latter despite being a lovely person I'm sorry to say has suffered the communitst do gooder infiltration more than the others. Sharron

*Aunty Helen needs to be stopped!! Geoff

*Impartiality in the teaching of political issues in schools is inordinately difficult to achieve. And no matter of clever drafting of legislation will change this fact. Bruce

*But that will not happen while the present Government is in power. The desire to "fix" us while they can, remains very strong. Hugh

*If we allow this to carry on, Labours socialist views will be so enrenched in our society, it'll take several generations to correct. Brent

**Duh! It's always interesting that the left want to indoctriante and the 'right' just want the facts and the ability to reason and think taught. Linda

*We have removed all four of our daughters from Health classes for this very reason. Margaret

**This is an area of real concern but how do we effect change? I feel so sad, helpless and irritated that these changes are taking place but that we seem to have no way of effectively stopping or changing them. Hellllllllllllp!! John S

*Political propaganda is something that the fascists and communists use, has our government now become like them. Machiavelli, Mao, Stalin, Hitler and the rest, all used this sort of manipulation of the masses. Save our children from this dishonest attempt by the government to manipulate their minds to such mindless ideologies. Walter

*The climate change debate of rising CO2 levels is based on 30 years of data. There are too many people earning a living from misrepresenting climate change and global warming. Don't let our kids be further brain washed by gores American propoganda. Bill


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 Post subject: Some Inconvenient Facts, regardless
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:08 pm 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story ... 90,00.html

Thaw in Greenland threatens new ice age
Paul Brown, environment correspondent
Saturday January 11, 2003
The Guardian
The amount of ice melting from the surface of the Greenland ice sheet broke all known records last year, threatening a rapid rise in sea levels and a return of very cold winters to Britain because of a slowing down in the Gulf Stream.


The Warming of Greenland
By JOHN COLLINS RUDOLF
Published: January 16, 2007
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all
…given the acceleration of tidewater-glacier melting, a sea-level rise of a foot or two in the coming decades is entirely possible, he said. That bodes ill for island nations and those who live near the coast.

Drivers of declining sea ice in the Arctic winter: A tale of two seas
Francis and Hunter
GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 34, L17503, doi:10.1029/2007GL030995, 2007
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2 ... 0995.shtml
Abstract
While the summer perennial Arctic sea ice has declined markedly in recent decades, the maximum extent of the winter ice cover had decreased only slightly, until the past few years when it also receded dramatically. … … The hemispheric-mean decline in winter ice extent is due in large part to increasing sea-surface temperatures in the Barents Sea and adjoining waters, which are consistent with increased concentrations of greenhouse gases.


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 Post subject: The Jugement from the British High Court
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:00 am 
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From Fox News:

Quote:
Al Gore’s award-winning climate change documentary was littered with nine inconvenient untruths, a judge ruled yesterday.

An Inconvenient Truth won plaudits from the environmental lobby and an Oscar from the film industry but was found wanting when it was scrutinised in the High Court in London.

Justice Burton identified nine significant errors within the former presidential candidate’s documentary as he assessed whether it should be shown to school children. He agreed that Gore’s film was “broadly accurate” in its presentation of the causes and likely effects of climate change but said that some of the claims were wrong and had arisen in “the context of alarmism and exaggeration.”

In what is a rare judicial ruling on what children can see in the class-room, Justice Barton was at pains to point out that the “apocalyptic vision” presented in the film was politically partisan and not an impartial analysis of the science of climate change.

“It is plainly, as witnessed by the fact that it received an Oscar this year for best documentary film, a powerful, dramatically presented and highly professionally produced film,” he said in his ruling. “It is built around the charismatic presence of the former Vice President, Al Gore, whose crusade it now is to persuade the world of the dangers of climate change caused by global warming.

“It is now common ground that it is not simply a science film – although it is clear that it is based substantially on scientific research and opinion – but that it is a political film.”

The analysis by the judge will have a bearing on whether the Government can continue with its plan to have the film shown in every secondary school. He agreed it could be shown but on the condition that it was accompanied by new guidance notes for teachers to balance Gore’s “one-sided” views.

The Government’s decision to show the film in secondary schools had come under attack from Stewart Dim-mock, a school governor in Kent and a member of political group the New Party, who accused the Government of brainwashing children.

The first mistake made by Gore, said Justice Burton in his written judgment, was in talking about the potential devastation wrought by a rise in sea levels caused by the melting of ice caps.

The claim that sea levels could rise by 20 ft “in the near future” was dismissed as “distinctly alarmist”. Such a rise would take place “only after, and over, millennia”.

Justice Burton added: “The armageddon scenario he predicts, insofar as it suggests that sea level rises of seven metres might occur in the immediate future, is not in line with the scientific consensus.”

A claim that atolls in the Pacific had already been evacuated was supported by “no evidence”, while to suggest that two graphs showing carbon dioxide levels and temperatures over the last 650,000 years were an “exact fit” overstated the case.

Gore’s suggestion that the Gulf Stream, that warms up the Atlantic ocean, would shut down was contradicted by the International Panel on Climate Change’s assessment that it was “very unlikely” to happen.

The drying of Lake Chad, the loss of Mount Kilimanjaro’s snows and Hurricane Katrina were all blamed by Gore on climate change but the judge said the scientific community had been unable to find evidence to prove there was a direct link.

The drying of Lake Chad, the judge said, was “far more likely to result from other factors, such as population increase and overgrazing, and regional climate variability.” The melting of snow on Mt Kilimanjaro was “mainly attributable to human-induced climate change.”

The judge also said there was no proof to support a claim that polar bears were drowning while searching for icy habitats melted by global warming. The only drowned polar bears the court was aware of were four that died following a storm.

Similarly, the judge took issue with the former Vice-President of the United States for attributing coral bleaching to climate change. Separating the direct impacts of climate change and other factors was difficult, the judgment concluded.

Despite finding nine significant errors the judge said many of the claims made by the film were fully backed up by the weight of science. He identified “four main scientific hypotheses, each of which is very well supported by research published in respected, peer-reviewed journals and accords with the latest conclusions of the IPCC.”

In particular, he agreed with the main thrust of Gore’s arguments: “That climate change is mainly attributable to man-made emissions of carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide (‘greenhouse gases’).”

The other three main points accepted by the judge were that global temperatures are rising and are likely to continue to rise, that climate change will cause serious damage if left unchecked, and that it is entirely possible for governments and individuals to reduce its impacts.



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 Post subject: Global Warming ...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:20 pm 
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Amy I'm not looking to criticise the J. If you read the links I’ve given you will see that there is very little of the Inconvenient Truth that scientists well immersed in the trade would criticise. Certainly the "11 points" the J has problems with can all be shown to have merit - regardless of the Js decision. Remember the J is assessing arguments, not technical merit.

I search among all the clutter to find out what is IS IS actually happening with our world. The explanation as to why or who is causing it is of much less concern to me. This denialist chatter is a bit like having ones house on fire and discovering that the fire chief will not put the fire out until the arsonist has been found, tried and put to jail. To put it mildly that’s silly, especially when one's loved ones are in the house.

I am not trying to put 'one side of the story'. I am pointing folk to what is actually happening. As I say please look past who or what to blame and instead look at what to do.

For example:

124 coal and gas-fired power plants slated for startup in 2006
http://www.environmental-expert.com/res ... &codi=5398

These will not be fitted with the carbon sequestration technology, as Hansen et al recommend they should be. These power stations emissions are on top of the Business-as-Usual scenarios considered as likely by IPCC. So this will hasten CO2 increase, which will reinforce the rate of change in our climate.

Elevated Carbon Dioxide Spurs Shrub Growth
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 091325.htm

The challenge here is that as CO2 levels increase on the prairie, ranges, high country and tundra areas then the more woody plants are winning the competition over the grasses and other plants that stock can eat. This has major implications for all industries that rely on grazing animals for meat and fibre. Sheep. Cattle. Worth thinking about.

So please keep looking and learning.


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 Post subject: Readers' Comments
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:39 pm 
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*I'm the Head Boy of a high school and over the years have seen the students getting more and more rebellious. I personally think this is due to the government progressively imposing the idea on young people that we have equal rights to teachers and should be treated the same. Equalizing everyone simply strips teachers of their authority because they can't physically punish students. Also with the government progressively imposing the idea that students have equal rights, students stand up to teachers and verbally abuse them because they know the teacher can't do anything about it. I see it all the time. Why can't the government just bring back the cane to put my generation back into line? Andrew

*However, by the time such a law is in place, thousands of NZ school children will have been brain-washed with the gunk and lies that already abound in "the system". Let's not forget that major lies such as the theory of evolution (that can be disproven thru irreducible complexity, the fossil record and the information in DNA) still completely colour the way that secular society functions. Indeed, there is no such thing as a "balanced" approach to education - one still has to start with some sort of frame of reference. It is that frame that determines everything else that is taught. Peter

*Cut the trash and return to good we-proven old standards and methods. Walter

*Absolutely! But it should not stop there...children should also not be allowed to be religiously indoctrinated - Their rights to be free-thinking citizens are being taken from them.. Cathy

*Of course. Are we so backward that we don't know what education means? This is really frightening on all fronts. If you don't get it, NZ has no future I'm afraid to say, and I won't stay to see it crumble. Good bye. Henk

*It is a long way past time when there needs to be rigorous cleansing of the the disease of socialism and marxist teachings in school curriculums, from kindergarten to right through to the Law faculty and all stops in between in the New Zealand Education system. Education is a description that should be used very loosely when referring to New Zealands School system. Propagandisation and confusion, would seem to be a more apt description than education. Dianne

*This is a 'no-brainer' (and therefore impossible for left wing 'thinkers' to understand). Children should be presented with facts first and then partake in discussions of various viewpoints. But the viewpoints should be presented as such and not pushed as truth (as is occurring at the moment). John

*I remember reading an article (perhaps 20 years ago I think in the Spectator) where the writer remarked that the environmental activists and/or greens would become the fascists of the 21st century. He predicted the failure of communism but warned that there will always be people desperately in need of a "cause", particularly when the collapse of the Christian influence on western society becomes total (not far away now). It may have been the famous socialist Paul Johnson who gave up writing left- wing articles for the New Statesman and had the honesty and guts to realise he'd got it all wrong. David

*The criticism of Al gore's film is part of the world wide campaign of disinformation on climate change organised by Exxon Mobil et al. Wake up Muriel ! Brian

*The teachers in NZ are in the main Labour Voters. Indoctrination will be the primary thrust. Subtle?--no way. Head Girl will see to that. She is a female version of Muldoon but on steroids with her agenda. Just grateful her line dies with her. Her Marxist views tho will continue. The best and brightest have been fleeing NZ now for years. That will halt soon after the dumbing down to mediocrity finally becomes the norm. All good Labour votes:). Alan

*Yes, children are taught all kind of misinformation such as the lie that vaccines prevent diseases. Erwin

*Ah brainwashing--did'nt Hitler use this?? Keith

*This government have their own agenda and will use our children to manipulate them to their agenda, which is to indoctrinate them to their policical and sexual wishes. I believe that we should have the right to our cultural and sexual beliefs (and this includes christian beliefs) to freely choose the schools to which we send our children to. I could say a lot on these subjects alone, as to political interferance that would create numerous volumes but shall only say we need to choose for our children, what they learn to what they do. Rawiri

*But I fear we may be too late already because we already have a whole generation of children indoctrinated by this sort of rubbish. And worse is that they believe it because their parents either are too apathetic to counteract it or yet even worse they believe it themselves. Grahame

*Our childen should be protected from political indoctrination, but that doesn't mean keeping all political messages away from them. I believe they should see viewpoints such as those in Al Gore's film. We just need to ensure that teachers press home that these are disputed opinions. Let's face it we can't get social-political viewpoints out of schools, or else we would have to get rid of social studies, geography, english, art .... use these issues to teach them to think. J

*Shocking to read Al Gore's comment, and the evidence refuting his argument. Who then can we trust? Kathleen

*Absolutly! Peter

*Have also forwarded article to my children's school. Philip

*So called intelligent people who voluntarily sign up for the significant responsibility of co-educating our children should be intelligent enough to understand their breach of responsibility not to mention their professional integrity when they stray from objectivity or allow or drive political agenda into the scholastic system for children under the age of 18.
Darrin


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 Post subject: Court Case
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:12 pm 
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But Nigel, the Court found that the claims made by Al Gore in those 11 cases could not be verified. That means that Al Gore used gross exaggeration - ie lies - to make his case.

All of the information you have presented below is putting one side of the story. If you browse The Global Warming Debate which has been running on this forum for months you will see many articles which are putting the other viewpoint, that virtually all of the events which people are using to 'prove' the existence of global warming, can be explained in other ways.

The key point in this case is that it was a High Court Judge who listened to the evedence from both sides - pro Al Gore's film and anti Al Gore's film - and decided that the film was wrong in at least 11 instances.

By the way Nigel, there are some intersting comments on "the hot potatoe that is global warming" topic as well.


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 Post subject: Judgement
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:50 am 
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Amy! Oh goodness no! I'm accepting that he did his job. He found sufficient information to make a judgement, and made it.

That is a very different thing from saying that the whole truth about a complex technical matter has been discovered and understood. The 'trial' was not about reaching a consensus on a technical matter, but about scoring sufficient points to say one side or the other has won. "Justice" prevailed, but that does not mean that the process made any useful contribution to the Climate Change debate. If you recall the classical depiction of Lady Justice; She wears a blindfold. In the matter before us we cannot afford to travel blind.

I've already pointed you in a few directions to seek useful reviews of Gore's movie. Try these as well:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=299

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... /#more-392


But please dont get hung up on this judgement. Its just one tiny ripple in the great flood of change that is upon us.


Some samples of the present status of our world:-

*Dangerous human-made interference with climate: a GISS modelE study* Hansen et al 7 May 2007

http://www.atmos-chem-phys.org/7/2287/2 ... 7-2007.pdf


Our conclusion that global temperature is nearing the level of dangerous climate effects implies that little time remains to achieve the international cooperation needed to avoid widespread undesirable consequences. CO2 emissions are the critical issue, because a substantial fraction of these emissions remain in the atmosphere “forever”, for practical purposes (Fig. 9a). The principal implication is that avoidance of dangerous climate change requires the bulk of coal and unconventional fossil fuel resources to be exploited only under condition that CO2 emissions are captured and sequestered.

A second inference is that remaining gas and oil resources must be husbanded, so that their role in critical functions such as mobile fuels can be stretched until acceptable alternatives are available, thus avoiding a need to squeeze such fuels from unconventional and environmentally damaging sources. The task is to achieve a transition to clean carbon-free energy sources, which are essential on the long run, without pushing the climate system beyond a level where disastrous irreversible effects become inevitable.

Saying in part:
…little time remains to … avoid widespread undesirable consequences.
And
…requires …the bulk of …CO2 emissions are captured and sequestered.


*Climate change and trace gases* Hansen et al 18 May 2007
http://www.planetwork.net/climate/Hansen2007.pdf
…Our concern that BAU GHG [Business as Usual Green House Gas] scenarios would cause large sea-level rise this century (Hansen 2005) differs from estimates of IPCC (2001, 2007), which foresees little or no contribution to twenty-first century sea-level rise from Greenland and Antarctica. However, the IPCC analyses and projections do not well account for the nonlinear physics of wet ice sheet disintegration, ice streams and eroding ice shelves, nor are they consistent with the palaeoclimate evidence we have presented for the absence of discernable lag between ice sheet forcing and sea-level rise.

The best chance for averting ice sheet disintegration seems to be intense simultaneous efforts to reduce both CO2 emissions and non-CO2 climate forcings. As mentioned above, there are multiple benefits from such actions. However, even with such actions, it is probable that the dangerous level of atmospheric GHGs will be passed, at least temporarily. We have presented evidence (Hansen et al. 2006b) that the dangerous level of CO2 can be no more than approximately 450 ppm. Our present discussion, including the conclusion that slow feedbacks (ice, vegetation and GHG) can come into play on century time-scales or sooner, makes it probable that the dangerous level is even lower.

Present knowledge does not permit accurate specification of the dangerous level of human-made GHGs. However, it is much lower than has commonly been assumed. If we have not already passed the dangerous level, the energy infrastructure in place ensures that we will pass it within several decades. We conclude that a feasible strategy for planetary rescue almost surely requires a means of extracting GHGs from the air. Development of CO2 capture at power plants, with below-ground CO2 sequestration, may be a critical element. Injection of the CO2 well beneath the ocean floor assures its stability (House et al. 2006) …


Saying in part:
If we have not already passed the dangerous level, the energy infrastructure in place ensures that we will pass it within several decades
And
The best chance for averting ice sheet disintegration seems to be intense simultaneous efforts to reduce both CO2 emissions and non-CO2 climate forcings.
And
…planetary rescue almost surely requires a means of extracting GHGs from the air…


and then we have new information on how bad a year Greenland has had:-
Professor Robert Correll has advised that parts of the Greenland ice sheet are exuding like toothpaste towards the sea at 15 kilometres per year.
http://environment.independent.co.uk/cl ... 941866.ece
and
A new NASA-supported study reports that 2007 marked an overall rise in the melting trend over the entire Greenland ice sheet and, remarkably, melting in high-altitude areas was greater than ever at 150 percent more than average.
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/enviro ... dhigh.html
and
*Remarkable Drop in Arctic Sea Ice Raises Questions*
Melting Arctic sea ice has shrunk to a 29-year low, significantly below the minimum set in 2005, according to preliminary figures from the National Snow and Ice Data Center, part of the University of Colorado at Boulder. NASA scientists, who have been observing the declining Arctic sea ice cover since the earliest measurements in 1979, are working to understand this sudden speed-up of sea ice decline and what it means for the future of Earth’s northern polar region.
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/enviro ... nimum.html
These following links also report the status of the artic ice areas this season, and compare this with historic information. The pictures are as remarkable as they are disturbing.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere ... t.anom.jpg

http://nsidc.org/news/press/2007_seaice ... index.html

And at the other end of the world we find..

A team of NASA and university scientists has found clear evidence that extensive areas of snow melted in west Antarctica in January 2005 in response to warm temperatures.
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookin ... 70515.html


Finally, it is worth keeping an eye on the Murray Darling Basin Commission’s reports relating to the drought in Australia.

From a recent report:
MEDIA RELEASE
Friday 28 September, 2007
The failure of winter and spring rainfall has forced the Murray-Darling Basin Commission (MDBC) to further lower the Euston Weir Pool and its associated Lakes.

Chief Executive Dr Wendy Craik AM said today that the hoped for improvement in inflows to the River Murray had failed to eventuate...
http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/river-info/ ... ent_wr.pdf


So with the already-thawing Greenland and the West Antarctic Ice Sheets alone holding enough water for 15m rise in sea levels, all these have to do is melt 10% and every one from Bangladesh and all the great river delta communities of the world will be lining up at the South Auckland unemployment office looking for a handout from those who said it wouldn’t happen. And these will be at the back of the queue for in front of them we will find the thirsty and starving population of the Murray Darling Basin, Adelaide and Melbourne.

Numbered among those in this forlorn line will be the poor New Zealand farmers who have been suckered in to buying Australian dairy farms because both the land and stock are comparatively cheap. They bought their farms with full water allocations, and this year they will be lucky to get any water allocation at all. The banks will still want their money. So sad.

From my perspective the threat is real and imminent. It is vital that we confront the local consequences of this global disaster directly and efficiently. This does not involve wasting resources on reducing emissions; our contribution will be negligible, either way. There just isn’t time.

The other factor seldom mentioned is that whatever the sea level rise we get next year, or even by the year 2100, the sea’s rise is going to continue unabated until all the ice is gone and we have close to 80 metres of sea level rise, and the world has become a new place.

Complete melting of the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets could lead to a sea-level rise of about 80 meters, while melting of all other glaciers could lead to a sea-level rise of only half a meter.
http://cegis.usgs.gov/sea_level_rise.html

and

Over a third of the people of the world live below the future 80 metre high tide mark.
http://cegis.usgs.gov/sea_level_rise.html

and

Of the world's 23 mega-cities (those with over 2.5 million inhabitants), 16 are in the coastal belt and are growing at a rate of about one million people per day.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0102/earthpulse/

The consequences of these changes in our world will be beyond our comprehension.

Even if we start attending to this problem today, there will be challenges, of course, because the very resources we need to gird our loins to survive this are subject to the same effects as ‘peak oil’. For example the rising global price of copper and other common building materials is due to an increasing demand exceeding a falling supply.

A Metal Scare to Rival the Oil Scare May 25, 2007, 10:17 am

…Some of the technological solutions to tackle our energy security and climate change problems would therefore be hard to implement…
http://3eintelligence.wordpress.com/200 ... ry-afraid/

and..

Managing Metal:
…Researchers studying supplies of copper, zinc and other metals have determined that these finite resources, even if recycled, may not meet the needs of the global population forever…
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 122555.htm

And almost 10% of global energy use is in the production of cement. But this will be solved, of course, by the energy-supply spin-down arising from peak oil and sea level rise. No oil, no cement. We will then be back to Wattle and Daub.

These realities will be compounded by the loss of coastal infrastructure for transporting and manufacturing the very materials we need to keep ourselves and our children safe from harm.

Then there is the challenge of securing our borders from those individuals who find us as an attractive migration destination, or worse from governments in desperate straights who find our country a better proposition than their own.

What is to be done?
So what is to be done? We-the-people of New Zealand expect our government to protect us from adverse events, and if the adverse events cannot be prevented (and the expected climate change is now practically unstoppable) we expect the government will make the best possible provision for our survival under what ever conditions will prevail.

The list of things to be done starts with acceptance of the fact that it needs to be done. This is the first imperative. Until there is national acceptance of the need, any efforts and progress to a safer position will be wasted.

We must start developing a comprehensive national plan of action. This should include esoteric matters such as alternative rules of property ownership to help address the loss of individual equity arising from the collapse of the land and mortgage markets as coastal land is taken by the ocean. We must figure out how to feed four million people ‘off the land’ where in the past the maximum self-sustaining population was a scant fraction of that, and quality protein was in such short supply that long pig was frequently on the menu. We have to work out where our energy supplies will come from once our wharves and coastal oil installations are under water. We will have to relocate Te Papa, and rebuild coastal roading links above the 80m line.

While we wait for the consensus to be reached each family, every person in New Zealand, must start making their own list of what they can do, and what their communities must do to prepare for the coming world changes that are now inevitably enveloping us here in our Gods Own Country.


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 Post subject: Judge
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:46 am 
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So, Nigel, are you claiming that the British High Court Judge in this case is lying?


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 Post subject: Politics in Schools on Trial - A Judge and King Canute
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:08 pm 
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Thanks for providing yet another view of world events – it’s a great way to stimulate healthy debate.

The judgement you refer to is based on a sad and by now thoroughly debunked bit of denialist spin. Maybe it a "no news day" that induced you to put this bit of old trash up for your reader’s entertainment?

In a way the Judge is trying to deny that nature is doing what nature does. He will have the same degree of success as the late King Canute.

The scientist who was cornered by the judge regarding global warming was stuck with answering typically impossible questions along the very standard line of "Was the person of poor character you were seen entering the toilets with wearing a hat or not? Answer Yes or No!" He had to and did answer the narrow questions put to him accurately and truthfully, even if in doing so he was unable to tell the whole truth. Remember a court only seeks sufficient information to be able to make a decision; it does not seek 'the whole truth'. There are numerous good technical rebuttals of this snow-job including commentary by the scientist himself, and it is a shame your research did not extend far enough to give a more balance view.

But putting that aside, it doesn’t matter if Gore is right or wrong of if children at school are taught that the world is flat. There is quite enough going on outside unpopular science, hidden agendas and smoke and mirrors to give us a few clues that something is amiss with our world.

For example a reader wishing to find some balance to your report could start with:

The Artic
http://nsidc.org/news/press/2007_seaice ... lease.html
"Arctic Sea Ice Shatters All Previous Record Lows"
"Diminished summer sea ice leads to opening of the fabled Northwest Passage"
"Arctic sea ice during the 2007 melt season plummeted to the lowest levels since satellite measurements began in 1979."

and

The Murray Darling Basin
http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/river-info/ ... ent_wr.pdf
"...Water is scarce throughout the Basin, with low or zero irrigation allocations widespread."
"...Current water availability is the lowest for the River Murray System over the past 116 years..."

Then they can Google “Dr James Hansen”, and read his latest papers updating the IPCC status.

Prudent people should keep a close eye on these events and make up their own minds, just in case your commentators are wrong.


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 Post subject: Readers' Comments
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:29 am 
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*And religious indoctrination too. KF

*This is very scary. Cynthia

*The problem would be that the legislation would be introduced in the same way as the electoral finance bill with a slant towards the government's way of thinking. John

*Most Definitely. Geoffrey

*Couldn't agree more ! David

*Congratulations to the High Court in the UK. Hope at the end of the global warming tunnel. YES PLEASE let's do something about political education in our schools. What is going on is appalling. Jo

*Children should be thought how to think for themselves, not indoctrinated by teachers and Governments. Marion

*Politics meddles too much in our lives already. Tony

*The education system is rife with communist ideology and getting worse. It must be stopped. We need tough laws to protect children from such obnoxious brainwashing. Teachers must be forced to either teach all points of political view equally or none at all. Any teacher caught teaching partizan politics should be permanently deregistered and thrown in prison for a few years. The whole point of education MUST be focused on teaching children HOW to think NOT WHAT to think. Steve

*Act and National should make this part of their election campaign and differentiate themselves fro Labour. Michael

*Definatley protect children. On the global warming issue Al gore is using this to further political ambition inthe future. I do not agree with his theories and personally think he should spend more time with his family and troubled son. Frances

*I am afraid it has already gone too far in our secondary schools, But better late than never. EJ

*We don't need the pc crap just the basics so our children can learn and grow to have their own opinions based on facts not what happens to be popular beliefs at the time! Melanie

*Absolutely. This is slanted propaganda to back a socialistic ideology. It is pure and utter brainwashing. As for the new educational scheme to be introduced into our educational system it is a blatant misrepresentation
of the facts which every human being has a right to be informed of. Kate

*Education should be unbiased, with facts presented without reference to current political attitudes, neo-Marxist insights, fashionable anti-colonial racial propaganda or other fads. Children must be protected from this subversive indoctrination, including Maori activism and environmental extremism. Gavin

*I am sick of school children being taught that all perceived inadeqancies that Maori suffer from are the fault of the European New Zealanders.How about teaching about all the benefits brought to Maori by Europeans. Christine

*But first one had to educate the teachers!!!!!!!! TONY

*I originally come from a country where political indoctrination was rife while i was at school and it did not do us any good! Magdel

*Definitely. Max

*Not only is it dangerous but the Curriculum is in the hands of each school Board and Staff and is subject to a great deal of manipulation by those with no pedagogy and those with axes to grind. Cliff

*To late I fear, I think the fascist's are to deeply embedded to stop them without closing down the teacher training collages for five years and import teachers from over seas, or/and send teachers over seas to be trained. When I was at school we could not even get a teacher to admit how they voted "see Fascist msn Encarta". I do not use the term fascist I have heard the term used but tended to treat it as rabble rousing by the not too bright but the other day I fed "fascist party policy" into Google and now suspect we have Pragmatic fascist government. NL


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 Post subject: Readers' Comments
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:51 am 
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*However, is it not too late already? Tjalling

*As a very aged ex teacher I can't believe how education can be so infiltrated with political bias. Fay

*They should be protected from a lot of things that they are currently taught! Murray

*Why is this not in news? All us media took it up. John

*Yes I believe that both sides of the argument should be presented, and I would treat religion in the same way. As it is a topic of public interest, I would not support the exclusion of the topic from the school curriculum. James

*Though I agree, I am far from certain any such provision would be simple to apply, indeed it may be near impossible Brendan

*I think it is a foregone conclusion. Bob

*Why is this not in news?All us media took it up. John

*Fat chance during the Clark dictatorship, but good if it could be achieved. She will probably use our taxes to fund her re-election no matter how we poll. Hugh

*With teachers mostly Labour Party orientated how do you stop them having an influence on our chidren at school? David

*Too late! They have been indoctrinated for years. DOT

*Concentrate on the basics,reading,writing,arithmetic,science,sport and outdoor recreation.Life skills are learnt on the way!Teach the kids perseverence and discipline. Ian

*Don't hold your breath waiting for the courts here to stop this rubbish being indoctrinated into impressionable young minds. Makes home schooling look more and more attractive, but that will probably be attacked soon by this mob of idiots and unelected morons we have in power. Wake up NZ - we must get rid of them or we'll all be sorry by the time 2011 comes round.Go away Sir Helen. Carolyn

*Maths, English, the Sciences, History - not politically biased views - are what our kids need. I was staggered that the Maori Independence website is listed as a resource in the curriculum. What poison! Mike

*I am frankly APPALLED by this Al Gore film's promotion in NZ schools, or anywhere else for that matter. Jean

*An emphatic YES! That is the only way NZ children will obtain an EDUCATION as opposed to a brainwashing! Susan

*Fat chance! The school curriculum is tightly controlled by politicians and is very political. The new changes are overt : "diversity, human rights, social justice, community, participation [activism], environment. Add "decriminalise Marijuana" and it reads like a Green Party Manifesto. Alan

*Absolutely! David

*Politics should play no part in basic school education. Global warming is NOT proven. Science is split and the warming noticed on other planets is NOT caused by what happens on earth. So humans are NOT to blame. Bryan

*There is enough inaccurate rubbish being taught in our schools now - rather than the skills to learn which used to be the focus. Glenn

*German youth was indoctrinated into supporting nazi race and other theories during the mid-1930s with no counterviews allowed. John


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 Post subject: Readers' Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:02 am 
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*It is a very good idea. After all, education should be about developing independent thought. Johnny

*Yes, but your implication that the British system works in this respect seems to have been refuted by my own experiences. I remember in my GCSE Humanities classes, we had feminism forced down our throats endlessly. Similarly, in Key Stage 3 Humanities, we were taught about the Treaty of Waitangi and the oppression those bloody Maoris supposedly live under, but we weren't told about the Treaty of Waitangi Grievance Industry. Graeme

*Political tuition with education is dangerous! Dick

*So far there doesn't seem to be enough evidence of global warming. Carolyn

*About time that all propoganda by the State, was stopped completely. Peter C.

*The Governments exhibition, Treaty 2U was a shining example of political and homosexual brain washing of our young children that cost the tax payers $2.3 million dollars. Ross

*It is a no brainer. Of course children should be taught the truth and that doesn't include politics. Dennis

*Too many countries use a political and religious teaching to in doctrinate young people. Free and fair speach should be allowed. Ken

*At present the kids are being hammered by the Maori agenda, by Labour's anti-establishment propaganda, by Islamic views, ad nauseam. However anything with a remotely Christian slant is banned from the syllabus in all but private schools! Lester & Barbara

*DURING THE KOREAN WAR IT WAS CALLED BRAINWASHING OF POW's. Thomas

*They did it when I went to school up to 1962. NZ colonial history had a pro-British slant to it. Ron

*Balanced debate is healthy in that it forces students to listen and make informed judgements. Indoctrination on the other hand is unfair - especially where no alternative views are aired. Mark

*YES - but you wonder if it is too late. Children are being taught by teachers who themselves were indoctrinated in the 70s & 80s .. John

*It is disgusting the way we are being railroaded into contributing billions and using unsavoury educational schemes to back an unsure contrary wrangle. Roy


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